Live With Spence and Fernando and Anne Stephenson

Spence: Hey, it’s Spence, the Evil Genius. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, we’re here with the World Famous Anne Stephenson. Good afternoon, Anne Stephenson.

Anne: Good afternoon, Spencer Forman.

Spence: For those of you who don’t know, Anne is in most of my live Friday Officers. I’ve known Anne since May of 2023. I’d like to remember you’re infinitely because we become such friends. You’re not only a colleague and a friend and a client, but you’re also somebody who is sharing a journey with me. Because one day we’ll look back on all this and it’ll all seem funny, right? Like the song because I met you right when my disc gave out. And the first cause we have was me hunched over the kitchen counter in a 12 out of 10 pain. And we’ve become good friends. I like the things since then.

Anne: Absolutely.

Spence: So one of the things I can share with everybody because today, according to Bernardo, his schedule for today was I’m supposed to talk about the benefits. Hold on, I’m actually going to call him up on the sidebar. Talk about the benefits of what 2025 brings in terms of AI tools for WordPress, implementers, agency owners, and business owners. And you and I have almost a daily dialogue. What the hell are we going to use all this stuff for? Because everybody’s a little different, right?

Anne: Yep.

Spence: This isn’t so much to put you on the spot. But I will characterize what I think your best use case is a better conversation. And I’d like you to speak for yourself, sorry to take the mic. But like, this is the official topic was today was Wednesday the 13th. That’s what presolutions for start-up of entrepreneurs in 2025, AI powered. What are your thoughts on what this AI WordPress related stuff is bringing to the table for somebody with your interest experience?

Anne: Well, first of all, there’s some misunderstanding. And immediately, you study it in what I’m hearing come through in, I know, right? And then it’s just up here thinking issue, but we can press on. Hold on, let me double track to make sure that I’m still actually in sync. I’m on the right network.

Spence: I’m going to ask again, Bernardo scheduled me in today’s topic if I had not been with you today. Best WordPress solutions for startup in 2025 AI powered entrepreneurs, agency owners, and more. And I was saying, based on your experience, you’re in the nutrition field. What do you feel this is all bringing to the table because we have different spins on it?

Anne: Yeah, so aside from the tools that you’ve developed, which are just the blow my mind, the more I keep working with them. But for AI in general with my field, I think it’s sort of a real dichotomy, because I think people are using this. And essentially replacing, talking live with a nutritionist and getting actual evidence-based advice, the nutritionist that I went to school with. These are graduate programs. They had, you know, deep biochemistry. The degrees are legit, master of science degrees, and so to have people assume that information that they get, which could be wildly correct or hallucinated through AI, they’re using this stuff. And so I’m kind of getting that nutritionist gets smart about what these things can do. And then really more importantly learn how to use them to do their practices better, more efficiently, make more money, all kind of business-y side stuff.

Anne: And so I see it kind of split and can do awesome awesome things. I think the conversation you just referenced that we talk about a lot is creation of technical solutions versus editorial-based services. So for example, whether it’s law, medicine, nutrition, coaching, anything. Many of my audience are WordPress implementers. It’s a nice way to put it or professional agency owners. And they’re used to using the intermediary tools of WordPress to build technical solutions. And that’s what they’re paid for. Others.

Spence: And I think you have a foot in both worlds now. Look, I have a client that needs newsletter. They need research. They need output. They need blog content. They need book review. They need all these various things that are otherwise capable of being done. Without regard to WordPress or the technical website. But now the tools either agentically or with the website make that easier, faster, better. And I think what’s interesting for me is that in our conversations especially, but now that we’re really refining the tools and I’m starting to see this week, especially in my own case and maybe because you’re one foot in both worlds, your case. A lot of my clients like today have spoke to Fred and Julie. Um, Neil, I delivered this other thing for the Earth’s group. First of all, being able to have just a relatively small set of tools that works to give Fernando, which is cursor or Claude, the capability to act as a virtual employee is enough to get most of what needs to be done done. Like even as of today, I don’t have the suite of specialty plugin services and tools, but just the global generic WordPress kind of capabilities is enough to really dramatically improve the workflow for either developing plugins, or doing work like last week I famously said I had a full week of production and organization and Marie Condo is happily taking care of her five children now with a mess, but my house is getting cleaned up.

Spence: Okay, so to the point, you were going to, you and I were talking today about like some help with regard to Cursor services, Claude and this tool for MCP versus that, and then which plugin like for example, the new Canvas block versus the Spence Style. Just before we get to some details, because it might do a quick screen share and help you. When I first considered the hot tub moment of this AI stuff, it was, I envisioned it like plugins in a phone you talked to, and it’s still possible to do that. But the reality has been agentic desktop tools, really are the solution we’re building, isn’t it, right? Like, even you and I as we talk, like I can’t imagine going, well, I’m just going to walk you talking into my phone, a bunch of random things, and then just independently use that. It’s really the continuity. Now, you’ve been using both. What you’re, I mean, you and I talked about was share your, what you’re experienced so far, Claude, who’s Morgan Freeman, and driving me crazy, first Cursor, which is 22m far. I like to say it’s a cab company, of a bunch of random dudes. What you’re experienced.

Anne: So, at any given time, on my desktop, I have, I have Claude open for quick searches. Instead of Google, I have Claude, which I have a pay for a max program. And I have ChatGPT, which I pay for Pro. And then now I’ve just got Cursor. And I think what’s so funny to me, is you will develop a hate relationship with one at the moment. I think it’s ChatGPT, whereas I, at the moment, hate Claude, because it is gummed up the works and how it handles projects. And it’s made it so that I can’t even get anything done in a single chat. So then it will bounce back to Claude. But neither of them do what Cursor can do in terms of actually doing deeper development work and getting into your site or doing plugin work. And I’m finding I’m really enjoying Cursor, but as a non-coding person, was really intimidated with it with its UI. And so I’m getting better and more acquainted. And in fact, I’m using ChatGPT to teach me how to use Cursor. And I love watching as Cursor works that it just really quickly flips through all the things it’s doing. And it’s actually teaching me so much at the same time.

Anne: But to wrap this up with a fine point, what I found just so fascinating was yesterday. I had a really frustrating day with Cursor, trying to build, oh, do all sorts of things in a client site. And it just said, “It couldn’t do everything at every turn.” And I was pulling my hair out and you. You’re just very calmly said, “It can do it. You need to do it. You tell it.” And I pointed it to your list of tools that, you know, just a screenshot of your ML Cursor plugin page that we all have. And I gave it back in and said, “Oh, my gosh, you’re very smart.” And it’s very great. I owe you in an apology. And I just learned from that, just very valuable. And I’ve even pulled out that little idea a couple times today. Look, I know you can do it. Like, I got to play the support of parent. You have the tools. I know you can do it. Now, just go and do it. And it will go and reevaluate and say, “Oh, my gosh, you’re right. I can.” I mean, here it is. And so it’s just been a really amazing, little roller coaster learning curve this week.

Spence: So it’s probably more than you needed to know. No, I mean, I think that’s a perspective that to share with people. I mean, I, there’s a couple takeaways from that. I think you just shared with us. First of all, as a parent of three and single dad, you know, we all, anybody who’s a kids or dogs knows you’ve had both. There’s moments where you’re like, I love this human being, this animal, more than anything, but I’m about to pull my hair out. These tools, the way they operate, make us logged into a belief that they’re alive, and through a certain extent, it’s an existential question if they are, but they’re really trying to please based upon a pattern of searching for answers, and sometimes that causes them to go into a loop, not to similar to, if you’ll bed today, so I was having a raised voice with my 14-year-old when he wanted me to drive to hockey to those 90 minutes before thinking and I said, “I’ll drop you in a friend’s house and take a lift and I’ll meet you there.” And I felt really bad because I have 60 minutes of bedtime that I can’t afford to give it the moment this week with my voice, and it was like the kid in band Santa, but he’s my son. “Where do the reindeer sleep?” and I’m very Bob Thorton like, “Oh, I can’t do it.” Okay, so number one, they don’t gaslight us to drive us crazy, but he drives us crazy. The serenity now, but I was screaming serenity now last night. Even, I mean, come on, you’re the most mild man in a person around, and it’s like serenity now.

Spence: Number two, the skills thing, I think is where a lot of the value proposition lies with what I’m hoping to deliver here, because if we really think about where I started about the hot tub moment and talking to the, “Hey, look, I got a phone, I can ask questions and it remembers.” Now it’s more about, I think I’m running a virtual agency. I quite literally, like, some of my colleagues have built, in the Philippines, or otherwise virtual assistants, and they train them, and they become good workers. And I think that’s still a thing, but now you’re going to be doing agentic programming or prompting. But I’m building a virtual agency where I’m equipping these tools, these agentic tools, with the skills and the connectivity to interact with the WordPress space and replace the middle layer of things like the Kadence, page builder, or the CSS thing, or ACF Pro, or the Fluent Community blah, blah, because we can do those things directly now with WordPress, and they can help us to but only if they get trained properly, be if we can share that between us.

Spence: So you refer to something that might not be clear to people listening, but I’m building a specialty skill library that can be shared amongst all of the clients and people using the system, where if you have the tools of the MinuteLaunch, you could hire an expert immediately for free to hear us how to do a multi-faceted YouTube slash blog post/newsletter, or hear us how to do the best email campaign for selling this or that, the million dollar homepage, this is how it’s done. And that’s really important because let’s say you’re an implementer or you’re doing it for your own business. How much time and effort would it take and you know to become proficient at the knowledge of what I’m supposed to do? Then the tools to do it, and then practicing doing it and getting real-world experience on this AB works or doesn’t.

Spence: And I heart-come back to our initial meeting. You weren’t really 100% sure what you felt like your focus could be or would be, and I don’t know if it’s finally worked out, but what I keep alluding to. I don’t know what I want to be when I grow. I mean, everybody changes, right? Me too. I think that some people in your position, particularly, you’re best and highest purpose in use of the tools is in an editorial, like a service-based editorial, because you understand the industry, the business, the humans. I know that you’re spreading your wings and trying to fly with, I love that. I’m going to write custom plugins and stuff. But that requires a different level of mindset and patience than, if you stuck with, for example, I’m not saying you should or shouldn’t, but if you stuck with, like, editorial. Today, the tools in the training is already there for them to do pixel-perfect, incredible research and publication. Beautiful pages, beautiful news, like, and you could go today and take your nutrition experience and either for your own business reasons, or for clients, provide valuable services, which compound hours or days of work into seconds or minutes of problem.

Anne: Yeah, and, in effect, I could just interject in through in there that what you figured out a long time ago, which is that you need this standard stack of sort of the best basic legos within the WordPress space. The most stable, workhorse stuff. And have that stack standardized, and then now be able to connect that with the brilliance that’s happening within AI chatbots and large language models, is just so brilliant. One of my clients that is a client of yours, she was telling me today. Well, I don’t know how to, all these new tags and categories. I don’t know how to tag my posts. And I said, “Just tell Claude to do it for you.” And I said in with the MCP, you can not only say, “Hey, write this post.” And it’s all the posts that you normally write. But you can say, “Tag it according to my tags.” And put it in and publish it as a post. That’s all done for you. And she– it was just mind-blowing. She said, “My gosh, that would be interesting.”

Spence: Can I call it anything, yeah? Yeah, I mean, that’s the part that– Let’s pause and just clarify in that part. So let’s say you are acting as an intermediary if not a full-blown agency. You’re working with this client, one-on-one. Who’s a qualified professional from the nutrition field who needed some website and other typical business services, right? Web Presence, newsletter, email, blog posts, social media, and stuff. What’s really empowering is there’s three levels at which you can work. You can work at, give the client the trained employee. You have the trained employee or the client doesn’t know who’s doing the work, but you’re using the trained employee. And either of those is financially very valuable because in your case, giving the client the employee and she’s paying directly for the platform, just like if they went and got Gmail or Google workspace. But you’re able to be her liaison, her concierge for whom she pays you your valuable money for the time and services, but now you’re essentially like the manager of the worker that comes to work at her company and she’s got her own control and relationship.

Spence: Now here’s where my things extend that relationship. I continue to feed and clothe and pay insurance for the worker to be, you know, here in the country or otherwise, you know, I’m using a domestic like imported employee kind of in their scenario. They are constantly being improved by the refinement of the skills database. So even from your interaction, let alone my interaction, somebody who is using the employee can ask the employee, oh, you just did something remarkable. If they choose to do so, you can teach the employee, remember what you did, memorialize it, not only in your memory, whether regular or auto memory, but then make a skills document. And the skills document can be shared either directly with the client and your own array of clients through something like a GitHub, or hopefully you will continue to pass it upstream to the greater wealth of knowledge of the MinuteLaunch community, because then it becomes something that could be improved upon by many others.

Spence: And I think over time, this is where this is all going. It’s not that dissimilar to high school college university trade school. Any of those things where people learn skills from traveling air experience, share them, teach them, train them, it becomes an educational system. And soon the robots will be wearing the brains, but right now it’s virtual, but you can also see how this scarily becomes kind of like Blade Runner or something, where we’re training them to do stuff.

Spence: So for those of us who are humans, when people ask me today what’s the value? Well, if you’re an end user, if it’s true business, can you really afford to not be getting on the bandwagon now when all your employees, other people are using it? Number two, if you’re an implementer, can you really avoid, can you afford to be a Luddite, while all the other implementers use these levers and get stuff done in two minutes that you take two months to do? And then the final one is, the window of opportunity for all of us is really based on how quickly is it till all this ubiquitous stuff shows up on everybody’s phone and you know Google or iPhone or Android just take over and nobody gets traction anywhere because as soon as they make it all for free for everybody it’s kind of like the problem in the housing market where Blackstone buys all the houses and it’s like nobody can afford to buy a house you have to rent for get a 50-year mortgage. And that’s a problem then stage capitalism. We have this window that the individuals have an opportunity to stake a claim in the relationship with other humans. And I think that’s the only way that this is ever going to work out well for humanity, at least that’s my personal undertaking.

Anne: So, yeah, now I think I just tack on to that. The fact that I can do coding, you know, when I first saw HTML, I love too much for me. So, the fact that I can make full plugins that work is just astonishing. So, the idea that the average person who’s not educated in the stuff can turn out some really amazing things now is huge. Then, if you just extend that down the road, if everybody can make really excellent content, if everyone can push out podcasts, if everyone can push out, you know, tons of videos and newsletters, everything is going to get overwhelming. And so, the idea that you need to grab your peeps, that those quick as you can and make them loyal to you, I think is really real. And I feel that I’m kind of up against it. Like, I’ve got to make that happen soon. And the tools that you’ve put together really make that possible. I’d add on a layer that you missed, which is your personal support on top of the launch kit bag of tricks, because, like, last night, ready to pull my hair out and say, geez, maybe I should go buy a cranberry farm somewhere. I mean, a really quick text from you. It was, like, magical. And I, Cursor started working and everything’s great. So I just am very grateful that you there and all of your knowledge. You’re very generous with it. So huge thing. I appreciate you for that. And I appreciate the human part of it because I think that’s actually, and I’m going to go play pick-up ball because we’re going to talk, well, we’re going to have more talk with the end because the end, and I want to share some other technical stuff, but I had this short window today and I wanted to jump on this point, because we were really both amazed.

Spence: From your gracious comments and other people’s interesting, experiences, I’m seeing a common thread, which is, if I think about what I want to do with my last trimester, which I talk about. I was on today with an interview with a headhunter who was looking for some people with experience in AI to be in the law field and other fields, right? Which I thought, “Oh, I’ll, I have this call, see what happens.” It’s fascinating because even the large law firms and the medical doctors, everybody’s looking for this experience, but you know, none of us. Doesn’t matter if you’re 20, 40, 59, none of us are the experts experts yet. Everybody’s at zero and when you talk about the common work space or workplace or job security, everything else. If you are a Gen X or who tends to be my crowd or older, this is the thing that you could be doing now to secure your future. Because the irony is I have, I practice lessons 1991 as a trial attorney expert, medical by practice, all these things. If I try to get a job at a law firm, there’s a 27-year-old HR person who’s like, “Hey Dad, I’m not going to happen.” And, or they’d want me locked in a wood paneled office for forty nine hours a day or something. That’s not going to happen for my level. But it’s an AI expert to deliver solutions as an implement. There’s a list of a thousand things that could be very low-hanging fruit that will provide the same level of income and job security. And I think that’s what I want to convey, is that being at the forefront, the early learning curve of these things, gives all of us that no matter what age we’re at, a sense of expertise and knowledge, or one step ahead of the people who need what we have to offer. Could be friends, could be businesses, could be enterprise.

Spence: And I think, well, we’ll carry on with this conversation, because one of the things about the toolset, as we just talked about, is that it’s not really so much like let’s learn a thousand new things. It’s a basic metaphor, and I’m very grateful for you, and everyone else, who’s in the real world, where I kind of like, I don’t know, birth to the child, and the child come to hang out at your place, and you’re successfully turning it, you know, like a trade school, or something like an apprenticeship. You’re having a new work for you and your clients, and I’m not doing what I did when I first met you, which was, hey man, let’s spend 13 hours figuring out where all the workers are to make a page. Yeah, and all I have to say is look, your brain child is being naughty. Can you tell me what’s going on? And you either tell me, or you fix it, and it’s really brilliant, either way.

Anne: Yeah, and I’m really grateful for all of you guys, and I appreciate the fine comments, because I do feel like I can extend my stuff out into being available personally for these little tweaks, and encouragement. Because I felt I was driving when you texted it, and I was like, I could tell you frustrated, all I knew was he gaslighting her. He’s just gaslighting her. That’s it. And it wasn’t like he hates you. He just, you know, he was gaslighting her. That’s it.

Spence: Okay, so I’m going to have to say pick a ball time. I’m with eight minutes to get ten minutes away. Thank you for today. I do want to have us talk more if it’s okay, and share some of the technical, like, MinuteLaunch Canvas block, the new MCP connectors, all these catchphrases to other people don’t mean much, but the new tools for connecting your Claude or Cursor does top to do more powerful work for you and your clients is coming. These are getting ridiculous amounts of views for how easy they are to make. And I think a lot of people are saying it’s nice because it’s kind of answering a lot of questions. So thank you, Anne, for today, and I look forward to talking to you again.

Anne: Sounds great. Thanks, Spence.

Spence: And for not no says, “Drumroll.” Oh, the music doesn’t, I can’t hear the music in background. Well, we’ll leave it back. Made by AI courtesy of Luke Stacey. Thanks, Anne. See you next time. Bye!

Anne: Bye!